Thursday, June 29, 2006

In the Bubble

For the past couple of days, I've been hanging out in Tel Aviv. My friend Savtadotty is in the US visiting relatives and she generously let me stay at her apartment. I've been able to hang out with my friend S that blogs over at Shirat HaSirena. Together we've heard mediocre music at a bar called Stout, had yummy shushi, and lots of laughs. I also finally got to meet Jacob Shwirtz. I read Jacob's journal even before I moved to Israel and it was a full circle moment to meet up with him. Noorster and I spent time together yesterday. We tried on 100s of sunglasses in my quest for the perfect pair. She humored me while I tried on a Tyvek jacket at American Apparel and I listened to her lament being an impoverished snob.

I've also been busy commenting over at Jewlicious. CK wrote a post a couple of days ago more or less about WorldPride. If you want to get in on the discussion jump right in. I am kind of tired of beating my head against the wall. Normally, I wouldn't get involved in these online discussions. However, I think that it's important to at least show readers that there's more than one side to the story.

The news in this neck of the woods is distrubing and getting to me. Not fun.

Y is coming to town this weekend an we're planning some interesting late nights in the White City.


At 6/29/2006 11:54 AM, Anonymous Lisa said...

I think your little dialogue with those two reactionary commenters has gone about as far as it's gonna go. You ain't gonna convince 'em, that's for sure. Take comfort in the knowledge that they represent a minority.

At 6/29/2006 1:36 PM, Blogger Katherine said...

yeah, even though they may raise your blood pressure, I really think the best thing is to not even attempt to discuss. I also read jewlicious, I'm also not jewish, and I live in Israel. and I often find myself really offended by a few of the viewpoints about non-jews, reform jews, gay people, and all the other targets that seem to be hit quite often at jewlicious. I think the sort of people who express the sort of opinion that they do (the ones you were trying to reason with), will never come round to a logical way of thinking, nor do they want to.

I also found myself really annoyed by the sentiments expressed in the post on onejerusalem over here

If you have a moment, won't you read and see what your take is on the article?

At 6/29/2006 7:36 PM, Blogger TM (Jewlicious) said...

Hey, I don't get it, why would anybody simply give up because the debate is unpleasant or harsh? Why would a dialogue, even an argumentative one not be worthwhile. I would guess that less than 5% of our readers ever post comments. I am confident that many readers share viewpoints with you just as many share viewpoints with others who disagree with you. The point is that you're forcing the others to read your ideas and maybe those on the extremes aren't going to be convinced but those in the center may be.

At 6/30/2006 8:54 AM, Blogger Savtadotty said...

I'm coming home in time to march with the parents. It took me many years to realize that Gay Pride extends to families and friends of gays. In fact some of everybody's best friends are families of gays.

At 6/30/2006 10:51 AM, Blogger Katherine said...

the thing is tm, is that those in the middle don't need to be convinced. The people who do comment tend to have fairly skewed to one side or another tendencies, and it feels like banging your head against the wall to argue with them.

I don't need to try and convince people that gay people are not an abomination, and that they're not going to hell, I don't need to convince people that us non-jews living in Israel also deserve the same rights and consideration as native Israeli jews, and I don't need to convince people that maybe reform judaism is more inclusive and welcoming than orthodox judaism will ever be. and not that it's any of my business, but seeing jews argue together about who is a jew and who isn't is sad to see, because I feel there are a lot of people who would raise their kids jewish etc, if they didn't get that feeling that according to some jews, their kids would never be jewish enough.

I know all these things, I have better things to do with my time than convince other people. If as an adult the only thing you (the general you, not you tm) can say about gay people is that they're an abomination, then there is no point interacting with you whatsoever.

anyway that is the end of my rant, sorry for using your comment board for it John.

At 7/01/2006 2:09 AM, Blogger Savtadotty said...

No Jew is ever Jewish enough: there are 613 commandments to be fulfilled regularly, and the most anyone who cares about them can do is try. As for the arguments, don't be sad: it's the way we talk to each other!

At 7/01/2006 10:22 PM, Blogger Esther Kustanowitz said...

Anyone else interesting in town?


At 7/02/2006 8:35 AM, Blogger John said...

Lisa: Yep, their logic is circuitous and their homophobia is evident. I think they make a pretty good argument FOR the pride parade though, no?!

Katherine: Thanks for the support and feel free to use the comment area however you wish! I am all about free speech! ;-) I know the lovely, lovely (I'm being sincere here) people at Jewlicious have a more pluralistic and egalitarian perspective. They post these stories because they're hot topics here and among the Jewish community everywhere. They're not responsible for the nutty comments. :-) Besides, those nutty comments just keep people interested in the parade - and I think that's a good thing all around.

TM: I am not giving up on the argument because it's harsh or unpleasant. It's BORING! :-) Yeah, I know that there are tons of lurkers that never comment and I am sure that many of them agree. My goal was simply to put the other side out there...and let people investigate for themselves. I would hate for a young person struggling with their sexuality to get all of their info from those voices that compared homosexuality to alcoholism and drug addiction etc. Scary!

SD: You're my straight grandma hero! See you at the parade in August! Just please try to keep your top on - it IS Jerusalem after all! You're right about how this topic touches every family. That's why coming out is so important!

Esther: You have to meet me first! ;-)

At 7/04/2006 5:11 AM, Blogger celestial blue said...

damn.. it's such a small blogging world. I have met you (in Jerusalem) and I have met Noorster (when she generously showed me around Budapest). I only wish I could have spent the day with you both!!!

Anyway, hang in there and do what seasoned Israelis do.... turn off the news for a bit and take a break when you need to. It can be overwhelming.


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